It has been a while since I have built an 853 frame. I must say, these tubes feel different just pulling them out of the box. There's a perceptable 'solid' feel.....maybe I'm crazy , but the high surface hardness of these tubes seems to be something I can feel just picking them up. O.K., I am crazy......nobody can feel that-jsut the same, the tubes are really round, ultra finely finished and just reek of quality. I now have a renewed enthusiasm for using these tubes, even if the price is a little steep. Maybe my next hardtail MTB will have a set. This frame is going to a local rider who will probably be riding trails more than racing. I built it solid so that it will hopefully last a long time.